The Lisbon thing & Fabfiveferg putting his foot in it

[Ivan]

Come lads on the no side we live in a fuukin banana republic, If we had say the danish system I could see something worth protecting.

All our political parties are self serving, and corrupt, we have to pay too much for everything and we have shitty weather, the irish gov even blessed us with VRT.

I will be voting YES for many other reasons but mainly because I want to see change in this country within my lifetime.

Again all goverments are corrupt and that will get worse with a yes because then we will have no say.

The Eu has turned VRT into a carbon tax that all countries will have.
Hence buying up VW to lower there CO2 across the range so they car still make the 911 other wise they will be out of business in a few years.

Soon you will not be allowed modifiy your car in any way like france.
No turbo for you!

[ger]

"Vote Yes for better weather!"

got carried away on the rant there.

4. It strengthens the EU's ability to impose service charges like water charges etc Basicly the ethos is everything should be opened up to the market - eventually that will lead to a push for privatisation of things like social insurance - i.e. US!

We don't need any help from the EU on this account, I will lose €3000 this year from the abolishion of the ' early childcare supplement' this will be given instead to the private child care industry.
We already have a working private GP service and are well on the way to full privatisation of the health system. Our governments agenda is far more Boston than Berlin.

3. The EU is not democratic. Decisions are made by the commission who are unelected and are heavily influenced by the European round table of industrialists - a big business lobby group.

I never directly voted for the taoiseach, did you?
You are naive if you think major political decisions around the world and here in ireland are not influenced by 'industrialists & business lobby groups' already as chomsky once said 'government is the shadow between big business and the people'
Voting no will not change this.

1. It institutionalises the arms industry and encourages nations to spend more in this area.

Voting no will not change the power of the arms industry.

2. The rights contained in the Charter are subject to limitations flowing from the rules of the single market.. I.E. even though there is “a charter of workers rights” they can be overturned by the European Court of Justice in the case of something like the Irish Ferries case.

At least there are charters of rights laid down, our government wont even ratify the fundamental charter of human rights. Maybe court cases will strengthen these rights.

5.Lastly and not least - you voted no the last time. It's the exact same treaty

.
I voted no the last time because I felt ill informed, I have done a lot of research since and feel on the balance of arguments voting Yes is more advantageous to me and my family first of all and to ireland as a whole.

[ger]

Ivan, i think my initial points were far more important, why not debate the lack of fundamental rights given to me, my children, my family, after that car mods seem unimportant.

We will get VRT & Carbon Tax just wait and see.

Again all goverments are corrupt and that will get worse with a yes because then we will have no say.

What say do you think you have now? Its just veneer.

[Ivan]

Ivan, i think my initial points were far more important, why not debate the lack of fundamental rights given to me, my children, my family, after that car mods seem unimportant.

We will get VRT & Carbon Tax just wait and see.

Again all goverments are corrupt and that will get worse with a yes because then we will have no say.

What say do you think you have now? Its just veneer.

Ger do you not think you should stand up and say no because
nobody else in europe got to vote.

[ger]

Ger do you not think you should stand up and say no because
nobody else in europe got to vote.

Its a valid argument, but i can not be responsible for the rights afforded to other countries citizens under their constitutions.

I have to say, now I have a family my view point has changed, I think in terms of my family first, then my country (I am no patriot as you have probably gathered).

If all those people who did not get a vote felt so disenfranchised why do they not stand up for themselves, why is there no 'blood on the streets'?

As far as i can see the majority of the irish people are no more informed than they were the last time around. They gather their information at best from radio & tv sound bites or at worst the likes of the star or the sun, these papers have a huge readership in ireland, how depressing is that?

What ever the outcome of the vote I am positive the decision made by a large percentage of the Irish people will not be an educated or informed one, and the only blame for this lies at their own door, people should not complain about not being spoon fed, democracy requires active participation.

I admire anyone who is making an educated informed choice regardless of the side they fall on, as for the rest…

The best reason I have seen so far for voting no is that '95% of europeans are foreigners', hehe

[Stig]

If all those people who did not get a vote felt so disenfranchised why do they not stand up for themselves, why is there no 'blood on the streets'?

Give it time.

[ger]

Give it time.

How long?

Its been a few years now already, i suppose they are warming up.

Or maybe they are too busy watching/talking about the footie or what ever their equivalent of eastenders, faircity or some reality crap they have been watching on TV.

Where are the marches, the protests, the naked dutch girls covered in anti lisbon body paint cycling bikes through Amsterdam…

and i don't mean the few radicals you maybe able to pull up on youtube, I'm talking mass discontent by the majority of democratic european people.

If you are going to stand up for someone and put yourself at risk you better make sure they want you to stand up for them in the first place.

[Ivan]

Ger do you not think you should stand up and say no because
nobody else in europe got to vote.

Its a valid argument, but i can not be responsible for the rights afforded to other countries citizens under their constitutions.

If all those people who did not get a vote felt so disenfranchised why do they not stand up for themselves, why is there no 'blood on the streets'?

Because we are supposed to be a civilised, not animals.
whos blood? mine? who are you fighting? The Police?
The english?....come on......
There is no need for fighting. We just don't want to be run by the germans
they tried to do that a few times and it looks like they got there way in the end.

[Stig]

Ger do you not think you should stand up and say no because
nobody else in europe got to vote.

Its a valid argument, but i can not be responsible for the rights afforded to other countries citizens under their constitutions.

If all those people who did not get a vote felt so disenfranchised why do they not stand up for themselves, why is there no 'blood on the streets'?

Because we are supposed to be a civilised, not animals.
whos blood? mine? who are you fighting? The Police?
The english?....come on......
There is no need for fighting. We just don't want to be run by the germans
they tried to do that a few times and it looks like they got there way in the end.

but our 1916 revolutionaries were not Animals, and got us our freedom which we enjoy today.

[ger]

Because we are supposed to be a civilised, not animals.
whos blood? mine? who are you fighting? The Police?
The english?....come on......

'Blood on the streets' is just a metaphor, you know large protest that kind of thing. it was in reference to the discontent of the rest of europe in relation to the lisbon treaty.

You are arguing for people who in the majority do not seem to care.
What's this with the 'germans' is there a hint of racism creeping in here.

All this hidden agenda stuff, and yet all the real points that i have made that make a difference to each of us on a daily basis, human rights, family rights, children's rights, the lack of general discontent of the people you are supposed to be helping, the lack of democracy in our own country, the neo liberal agenda of our own political parties etc, none of this has been addressed.

Do you honestly thing the germans have an imperialistic agenda?

Our country is insolvent due to corruption, the only thing between our Gov running the country and the IMF running things is the ECB, they are doing the most important job a central bank can do, be a lender of last resort. If you know anything about the history of the IMF you may see things differently.

but our 1916 revolutionaries were not Animals, and got us our freedom which we enjoy today.

Come on, give me a break.

[leamyj]

We just don't want to be run by the germans
they tried to do that a few times and it looks like they got there way in the end.

_________________


I thought we had been taken over by the British and the Germans, (how ironic is that?)every major town now is like "Little Britain" or "Kleine Deutschland"

Tesco/Halfords/Lidl/M&S/Debenhams/Mothercare/Aldi/Boots/Ladbrokes etc.,

For 25 years I had my own business selling to indigenous establishments that are no longer in existence because of the rise of the retail giants.Had no choice in the end but to go work for one of them!!

Also, has anyone noticed how few petrol stations there are nowadays?? If you are unfortunate enough to run out of juice in Dublin, you're gonna have some job finding a station.

As Mr Dylan sang..."The times, they are a'changin' "..not necessarily for the better either.

I feel like going for a drive, that'll cheer me up



PS Lads...whether you're voting yes or no tomorrow, GET OUT THERE AND VOTE!!!!

[Stig]

[/quote]

Come on, give me a break.[/quote]

what, from the truth? The people back then had to face harder challenges than our generation and put their lives on the line for freedom for our country. Its a short memory you have there if you want a break from our history.

[Steve]

<offtopic>
I thought it was the old IRA in the War of Independence 1919->21 no? </offtopic>

[ger]

what, from the truth? The people back then had to face harder challenges than our generation and put their lives on the line for freedom for our country. Its a short memory you have there if you want a break from our history.

I said give me a break because somewhere along the way Ivan seemed to think i was advocating violence with the 'blood on the streets' comment and like a stream of consciousness you expanded on it. 1916 is not the topic of discussion regardless of the heroic nature of the people involved.

Still no one has debated the points I have made, this is about the vote tomorrow 'the lisbon thing'.

I would like to hear some macro political arguments for voting no, how is going to effect you as an individual on a daily basis. How will you be better off.

In my view if you vote no, all you get is more of the same (see johns comment), more political corruption right on your doorstep still no european charter of human rights, still no children's rights, workers rights in ireland are nothing to shout about and we are still economically and politically bankrupt, with the wolves i mean IMF at the door.

Who guarantees the state bank guarantee of 400 billion or so?

I have a lot faith in the wisdom and intelligence of the Nordic countries and i see no discontent there with the ratification. I have a finish friend who has a chuckle when he comes to ireland, 'what's an accident blackspot?' he asked, when i told him he wanted to know why we dont just fix the road. This is Ireland in a nutshell.

[Ivan]

I have a finish friend who has a chuckle when he comes to ireland, 'what's an accident blackspot?' he asked, when i told him he wanted to know why we dont just fix the road. This is Ireland in a nutshell.

And thats why i like living here.